In episode 5, Teresa Morris and Will Wright discuss how virtue is the mean between excess and deficiency. They talk about how virtue relates to spiritual life. Teresa explains Plato’s analogy of the Cave, Mumford and Sons, G.K. Chesterton, and Dr. Peter Kreeft are brought up. This conversation has a few tangents, but all of them are worthwhile. Give it a listen! Listen to episode 5 and then join us as a free or paid subscriber here at https://gooddistinctions.com/
Rough TRANSCRIPT of the Video:
Will Wright:
Welcome back to Good Distinctions. I'm Will Wright.
Teresa Morris:
and I'm Teresa Morris.
Will Wright:
And good distinctions are...
Teresa Morris:
the spice of life.
Will Wright:
So today, Teresa, we are talking about virtue. I'm glad that you're with me because I don't have a lot of it. I'm working on it, but I would like to grow in virtue. So hopefully this conversation will be helpful to everyone that's watching. So let's dive right into it. First of all, let's define what is a virtue.
Teresa Morris:
Hmm. I wish the answer was as simple as just being able to give what is a particular virtue or what is the overall definition of virtue. I will give the definition of virtue that I tend to think is maybe the best one. And then perhaps we can kind of talk about why people have different opinions on why that may or may not be a good definition. So virtue was initially proposed by Aristotle and Aristotle essentially said that virtue is a habit of excellence and that it's a mean between two extremes of excess and deficiency. So his proposal was that people should be trying to live a virtuous life and where virtue falls, if you think about kind of like a line, virtue falls right in the middle. and you want to be oriented towards this kind of middle ground and you're not trying to fall to one of the other sides of excess or deficiency. So you don't want to be too much of something but you also don't want to be lacking in something or deficient in something. So virtue is kind of that middle ground of excellence that we're trying to cultivate.
Will Wright:
So we could say in Medio stat Virtus, which is Latin. I don't know why I know the phrase in Latin. Aristotle spoke Greek. Anyway, it means in the middle stands the virtue, right? And so that's what we're getting at. I think it's hilarious when asking a philosopher anything because you're gonna get a very philosophical answer. No, it was very beautiful. And I'm excited to unpack that. I would just like to offer. I guess the theological answer would be what's in the catechism, right? So the virtue is a habitual and firm disposition to the good.
So I'm not thrilled with that definition as like the end all be all. I don't think it includes exactly what you mentioned of excellence as being the mean between excess and deficiency. But I think we should start by unpacking that real quick. So It's habitual, which means it's a habit.
It's something that we have to do. And it's something that we have to habituate and make part of our routine, something that we need to practice. Later, I think we'll definitely talk about the difference between the theological virtues and the cardinal virtues and moral virtues, because there's a huge distinction to be made there. But putting a pin in that, habitual. So it needs to be habitual, but it also needs to be firm. Right, it's not wishy washy. You can't just... You know, you're walking down the road and you see a kid walking towards the street and there's a car coming and you go and you reach out your hand half-heartedly, grab the back of their shirt and say, hey, don't do that. That doesn't make you a brave person. That doesn't make you courageous. That makes you basic borderline minimum human.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
You're not a monster.
Teresa Morris:
Yeah, right.
Will Wright:
So good for you. You know, everybody's, well, I didn't kill anybody. Like that's not a very good metric for whether you're a good person or not. But anyway, so it needs to be firm. It needs to be something that you practice every day. You wake up and you say, I'm gonna be courageous today. If there's an opportunity where I need to practice courage, I'm going to. And then disposition, so disposing ourselves towards the good, which ultimately is God, and being in accordance with natural law and the eternal law.
Teresa Morris:
Yeah, I think something that is is helpful about the concept of virtue is, you know, what you're saying is that it's a habit. It's a really hopeful view of morality. It's a really hopeful view of building character because it's saying that we have the capacity to improve upon ourselves. So sometimes people are like, well, I'm just not built that way. Or I'm just like not a good person. Or I'm not given when other people are given, which may or may not be true, right? Like we're all given different gifts. We're all given different upbringings that can dispose us to different virtues or not. but the proposal that virtue is a habit inherent in that idea is that you have this capacity to work on yourself and build up this habit. So it's not something that you're just gonna wake up and you're like yeah today I'm gonna be courageous and you're just gonna automatically be that way. It takes practice and it's something that requires intentionality and eventually it becomes our natural mode of being. So spoiler alert for Nicomachean ethics at the end of Nicomachean ethics, Aristotle is asking this question of like, well, how do we even get here, right? That if we can say, here's this list of virtues that we have determined are important to strive for. How do we get from point A to point B? Point A saying, I see that this is a good thing. Point B being this is integrated into my life. And what he says is you have to surround yourself with virtuous people and learn through imitations. So if I find in myself a lack of something where I'm like, I just wish that I was more honest, or I wish that I was more courageous, or I wish I understood chastity better. It's not that I have to white-knuckle my life and just force myself into those things.
Will Wright:
Hmm.
Teresa Morris:
What I should do is I should say, who do I know that lives these well. Who do I know who's really courageous? Who do I know who's really honest? Who do I know who lives chastity beautifully? And I look at how they're living and I just kind of imitate them. It's kind of like how children learn, right? It's like when we're teaching children how to speak, we're like, say, da-da, and then we're trying to get them to imitate it. That's how humans just naturally learn is we're given a model for something and we kind of like act it out until we can do that. So It's, I love the concept of building virtue as a habit because it connects us to community and it says you're not supposed to do this on your own. This idea of becoming a good person isn't solitary. You're not doing this in isolation. You do this by imitating the people around you. And it takes time because habits take time to build and that's okay. It's not something that we should feel discouraged about which I think sometimes in ethics or in just the process of becoming a good person. it's easy to get discouraged because it's like, oh my gosh, I failed again. I woke up and I made this decision to be this way and I missed the mark and virtue ethic says that's okay. Habits take time to build just like anything.
Will Wright:
And we will mess up. And it's not just about aiming for the good, it's about the reality that God is the greatest good and that we're in a relationship with Him. And so, when we encounter good, whether it's in ourselves or in someone else, we're encountering the spark of the divine, we're encountering the image of God in that. And so, it's not... Like you say, it's not just picking ourselves up by our bootstraps and white-knuckling it. We're not Pelagians. The Pelagian heresy is that we can will ourselves to heaven, that we don't need grace. Well, that's a huge lie. Of course we need grace. But grace builds on nature. It perfects nature, as St. Thomas says. So if that's true, and it is, then by surrounding ourselves with good people, good friends and allowing God to show us to those people. Right? Saying like, Lord, I need better friends. Like lead me to them.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
And then allowing him to sort of put these people in our lives. At least that's been my experiences. I have these people come into my life that I never would have gone out of my way to find. And I mean, even I know we talked about this in Episode One, but like how I met, how I found myself moving from North Carolina to Phoenix was very unexpected. Well, now I know all these wonderful people. And I have a bunch of wonderful friends in North Carolina as well. And it's just beautiful. The Lord has led me through this different pathway and journey. And I know these people have made me better. But in the past, when I've had some friends who didn't always live up to virtue, didn't always have the same orientation as me towards the good and towards what is true and beautiful, I felt myself sliding backwards because I really believe that we can't be stagnant. There is no stagnation. We're either moving forward or we're moving backwards. And that's just a function of the fact that we're alive and in time. Right.
Teresa Morris:
Right.
Will Wright:
Right, the good, the virtue. So, right, if we have good friends, they will lift us up, which is what you were saying. And I think there's... lot to be said about grace building on nature and allowing God into that mix. So it's not all or nothing. I think that's kind of what I wanted to get at is for anyone listening who's thinking, okay, well, it's a habit that I need to firmly dispose myself towards. So it seems like I need to put forth effort. But then you're saying, well, it's not something that you just white-knuckle. Well, okay, then how do I do it?
Well, I think it's this mystery of synergy. Between God acting and giving us grace and us cooperating and responding to that grace.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm, definitely. And I really like what you said about how the people that you surround yourself with really affect us and that. one of the prayers that we can pray is, Lord, give me people in my life who are going to aid in my flourishing because he wants that for us. And that flourishing is something that was really important for the Greeks, this concept of eudaimonia, which is virtue is oriented towards that, that it's not existing for its own sake, it's not even existing for this consequence in society, it's existing for our own flourishing. And... that we do become like the people we surround ourselves with. Even in social psychology, people talk about how you become like the five people you spend the most amount of time with, which is why it really matters who you choose as friends. It matters who you choose to marry because you're going to become like those people. It's why I love teaching because I want to be like my students. I think that they're wonderful and I want to be more like them for the most part. And so we can't let ourselves be unaffected by the people that we are surrounded by and so that it's possible to change and to become like the people that were surrounded by. I
Will Wright:
It reminds me that there's a narrative to our lives that God is writing ultimately. And then there's a meta-narrative that we all fit into. There's one true story. One of my friends is a filmmaker and he talks about this a lot, that all good stories exist within the one true story, the story that God is writing, this meta-narrative, which is exactly the opposite of postmodernism. that there actually is meaning and that we can plug ourselves into that. But I've also heard, especially those who follow Carl Jung, especially like Jordan Peterson, for example, talks a lot about how we play this set of games over time. And it's really a rehearsing of behaviors to play the meta game or the meta narrative. And that's how, like what you were talking about with the kids watching. other people and figuring out how to play the game, so to speak. And he doesn't mean that in a cynical way. It's just how do I navigate my life? How do I navigate interpersonal relationships with others in an effective way where I will be flourishing?
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
And that idea of you eudaenomia that you brought up, would it be would it be acceptable in your mind to equate that? And I've made this I'll go ahead and say I've made this case. So feel free to push back. that eudaenomia, that true real blessedness, that true lasting happiness is synonymous with what Jesus is talking about in the Beatitudes.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm. I would say so. And I think ultimately that concept, I mean like everything is fulfilled in the beatific vision, right? That like all of these ideas of happiness, flourishing, excellence are ultimately fulfilled in our experience of an encounter with Christ. And that helps us then having this sense of, oh, this is the ultimate vision for our lives. This is where ultimate fulfillment is coming from. Helps us then. orient all our other actions towards that type of excellence to say like this is this is the primary goal and So it helps order all those other things. So I would say that the Beatitudes are an orientation towards virtue and excellence because it's not just Here's here are the things that you can't do. It's not just a list of behaviors It's an orientation towards goodness and an orientation towards excellence. And I think that's what You can say this about virtue from a philosophical sense, or you could say this about virtue in a theological sense, which I think could be attributed to the Beatitudes, like you're saying, that it's not this question of what should I do, which can be a really stark view of doing ethics or just living your life, of what should I do or what should I avoid? And here's this list of things that I can and can't do, but it's who do I want to be? What type of person do I want to be?
Will Wright:
Hmm.
Teresa Morris:
And I think that's what. eudaenomia offers, I think that's what the Beatitudes offers, it's this proposal for what type of person do you want to be and it's an orientation of the heart and it's an integrated vision of how to act. It's not just I'm going to will this thing and just you know do this because I feel like I have to but it's a movement of the heart towards something good and something excellent.
Will Wright:
Dr. Peter Kreeft has a brilliant lecture on this, where he talks about the Beatitudes and he brings up the concept of eudaenomia, but he also brings up GK Chesterton's biography of St. Francis of Assisi. And he says that it's the line about coming out of the cave, walking on your hands, seeing the world hanging upside down and understanding dependence when we know the maker's hand, comes from an encounter with God in which we turn all of our expectations on our on its head, which is really what Jesus is saying in the Beatitudes. These are these are nuts, really. first look at them they go, what are you talking about, blessed are to the poor in spirit? I don't want to be poor in spirit, I want to be rich in spirit.
Teresa Morris:
Right.
Will Wright:
But what it's saying is no you need to be humble, you need to empty yourself in order to be filled with God. And then he walks through Peter Crave walks through the rest of the Beatitudes and shows how it's an inversion of a lot of the things that we think we want, like conquest
Teresa Morris:
Right.
Will Wright:
of nature, freedom from pain,
Teresa Morris:
Yeah.
Will Wright:
et cetera. So it's really fascinating. Incidentally,
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
Mumford and Sons the Cave is, you know, that exact line from the Chesterton biography of St. Francis of Assisi, and it's awesome. So go listen to the Cave, everyone.
Teresa Morris:
it's such a good song. I also thought for the longest time before I read that work by GK Chesterton, that he was talking about Plato's cave, which is my heathen philosophical viewpoint of the world,
Will Wright:
Ha
Teresa Morris:
Which you can kind of say that it's both, but it really is much more the sense of Christ turns everything upside down and has, you know, this proposal of paradox for the way that Christians should live their life.
Will Wright:
But why couldn't it be Plato's cave?
Teresa Morris:
It could be. It can be both, I think. I think they're really, yeah, I mean, you walk out of the cave and you're shocked at how the world looks. You're like, oh my gosh, all these things that I thought were just shadow, like there's actually a real flower. There's a real this. And it feels like the world is upside down because it's not shadow, it's real.
Will Wright:
Alright, professor, I think it's time. I think we need to take the time rather to explain the cave analogy. Just a little bit, just a little bit, because people listening, I'm sure not everyone has been exposed to this. Not everybody's read the Republic. So what have you got?
Teresa Morris:
Okay, yeah, so there's this famous analogy in Plato's Republic where the Plato's Republic is trying to determine what it means to be a just person and it's doing that by giving this analogy of what it means to have a just city and a just city is this analogy for a person and in that he talks about uh he gives this analogy of what it means to to live a good life and what it looks like to finally understand what a good life is and to experience it. So that everyone is born into this cave and they're facing the back wall of the cave. So you're just looking at this blank wall and you're in chains and the sun is behind you on the outside of the cave. So everything that you're seeing is just a shadow. So like a dog walks by and you see a shadow of a dog or a tree is growing, you see a shadow of a tree. A bird flies by, you see a shadow of a bird. And that's what you think the world is, because that's all you're ever exposed to. And then at a certain point, someone breaks out and they leave the cave and they go outside and the sun is illuminating everything and they realize, oh my gosh, this thing that I thought was a dog, this shadow is actually a dog, this tree is actually a tree and this bird is actually a bird. And you're experiencing everything in reality and it's so much better and so much more intense than what the shadows were. And that's kind of the experience of doing philosophy is your... experiencing the really real. And so then that person goes back into the cave and they're trying to tell everyone about it and they're like, oh my gosh it's so much better out there, I promise. And you would think everyone would be like, yeah, that sounds great. Let's go. And what they actually do is they say, no, you're crazy. I don't actually want to experience that. And they stay in the cave and they actually end up killing the philosopher. So it's really not a great look for philosophers because it's sort of a sad ending. But it's this idea that reality is worth experiencing, that truth is worth experiencing and encountering, even if you're kind of put to death for it, that it's worth standing for truth, even if everyone around you doesn't think that that's worthwhile. So in the song, the reason when I was first listening to Mumford was actually my freshman year of college when I was first studying philosophy and I heard that song and I was like, this is Plato's cave. It's this experience of walking out of this cave and the world is opposite of what you thought it was. It's so different than what you had thought and it's so much better. than what you had ever dreamed it could be. And that's, I think, life of virtue and truth that can be experienced just through kind of morality and philosophy, but even more so, exponentially more so, is that experience of a life with Christ, where all of these natural inclinations or desires that I have that I could make an argument for justifying and saying, well, I can reason my way to that, this is how I should act. Christ says, sure, but I'm actually going to propose something that might maybe even seem unreasonable to you. That is really crazy. That is, you know, you should totally humble yourself and you, you know, so all these things Christ proposes is this world flipped upside down.
Will Wright:
Well, and how prophetic in a sense when I'd never thought about it in this context, but Jesus is wisdom incarnate. He is the word. He is the logo. So of course he was put to death, right?
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
He is like, he's coming into the cave and saying, yeah, all those shadows aren't real. Let's have the real thing, which I think you're reading of the cave. The song is very much in line with what St. Augustine would have thought. I mean, he was a big fan of Plato. He saw the world of forms as heaven as being in the mind of God and So How does that this might be a little bit tangential, but I think it's worthwhile How does that transition from that transcendence of Plato to the more eminent philosophy of Aristotle? How do you get from Plato who's the teacher to Aristotle who's the student because there's usually In the sense that you have that famous painting of Plato pointing up and Aristotle pointing down. So what's that about?
Teresa Morris:
Yeah, I think that Aristotle, you know, Aristotle kind of rejected this concept of the forms that were just participating in these ultimates that Plato really was proposing. And that I think upon an initial reading, in a lot of ways can sound like Christianity in some senses, which is why I think Augustine really took to that. Aristotle was a bit more focused on what does this mean for human behavior. and that he saw a tension between a proposal of absolutes and forms, and that there's a bit of a disconnect between saying here's just these objectives that we're looking at, and he was struggling to find the in-between, this kind of virtuous mean between well you can say that you know there's a there's an objective virtue or there's objective goodness, but what that looks like for an individual person might be different from person to person. So for example, he thought that there was a truth in saying, there's objective goodness, there's objective beauty, but the way that you and I are going to engage with those things is going to be different. So what it looks like for you to be courageous, we can say courageous or being courageous is a mean between. the excess of recklessness and the deficiency of cowardice. But how that's lived out in my life and your life might be different or how you might be courageous in a particular situation is going to need to be different from me. So an example of this is like, if I need to talk to, if I need to be courageous to a boss and I need to stand up for myself in a work setting, what courage might look like for me is going to be different than what it would look like for you in a work setting standing up to a boss. So it might be courageous for me to write an email standing up for myself, whereas for you, that might not be courageous. The courageous thing would be to walk into someone's office and have a conversation. So Aristotle
Will Wright:
Hmm.
Teresa Morris:
saw more of a nuance, whereas Plato was much more hard-lined in these forms and were just participating in these objectives. And Aristotle kind of saw that there was a difference in how those things were lived out from person to person. So I think his sense of human behavior. and looking at individual human behavior and the cultivation of virtue in the individual, kind of accounted for, yeah, the distinct way that people can live their lives in accordance with these objective truths.
Will Wright:
which we would see as being in accordance with the natural law, which is our participation in the eternal law in reality as it is. So
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
I don't, I don't see a huge gap in retrospect. Like obviously if you're thinking through it as Aristotle, without the light of Christ to fill in the gaps.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
I mean, I could see the, the world of forms, for example, as being in the mind of God, but
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
God is simple, like divine simplicity, that he doesn't have parts and pieces and attributes. He is. Period. Right? He is, He exists as essence is existence. So if that's the case, then our participation in those perfections is a participation in reality as God made it. And ultimately in him, because in him, we live and move and have our being. So I think ultimately there their views are reconcilable, at least in my mind, to a large extent, because they show us that there is a standard, there is an objective reality. But then, I don't know, I'm kinda like, I'm thinking through this as we go, but it seems like the way that you explained Aristotle seems very subjective or relativistic. And I know that that's not true. So how would you respond to somebody who maybe is moral relativist at heart, who's who hears what you say and say, see, it's different, it's completely different. So stop trying to compare me to you and there is no standard.
Teresa Morris:
Yeah.
Will Wright:
So how would you respond to that?
Teresa Morris:
Yeah, I would say that there's a difference between when we're talking about goodness in a metaphysical sense, which I think you could say that Plato is kind of, when he's talking about the forms, he's kind of talking more about metaphysics and, you know, what is goodness itself, whereas Aristotle is focused on the cultivation of goodness within a person and that he thinks those two things are distinct and that they're not opposed to each other, but what it looks like to choose the good in terms of action is different than what goodness is. in this metaphysical sense. So he does think that virtue is more than just fulfilling certain roles, or it's just doing what I personally think is good. He does think that it's the acquiescence of a person towards something objective, that there is something outside of myself that I'm trying to achieve. I'm trying to be. courageous or I'm trying to be honest or whatever. And it's something beyond myself that I'm trying to then orient myself towards. So he doesn't think that the individual gets to decide what the virtue is, but that the individual gets to decide how to get there. And so he is in no way saying that society should be composed of individuals who get to determine. what is good or what virtue is because the consequence of that is just moral and coherence in society
Will Wright:
Hmm.
Teresa Morris:
that we can't have that and Aristotle is not proposing that. But what he is proposing is that it's not insignificant how an individual's heart and will is formed to be a good person in society. That it really does matter who the individuals are. It's not just follow these set of rules. that it's a transformation of the person. So in that sense, it's subjective because it's a subjective way of living out these objective virtues. But it's not subjective or relative in the sense that you get to determine what that is. It's just that for you, how you're living it out is subjective because you personally have free will and you personally have to choose it.
Will Wright:
because it pertains to you as the subject. So what's the difference between subjective and relative? Because I feel like these are often conflated,
Teresa Morris:
they are.
Will Wright:
usually by people who are not moral relativists, usually people who say there is only objective truth.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
And I met more than one person who claims this. And at first I thought to myself, well, that's absurd. Of course there's subjective truth. But then as we got talking more, I was more and more confused and I wasn't sure of myself and I was like, well, maybe it is just objective truth, but it's objective for you. Like preferences, for example, like is it true that I like pepperoni and bacon pizza? Yes. Is it true that is the only pizza to like? No. So it doesn't matter because for me, I love pepperoni and bacon pizza. And so that seems subjective in that I, the subject like this certain type of pizza. But if somebody else is looking at that and whether they know it or not, if they make that claim, you know, Will likes pepperoni and bacon pizzaObjectively, are they correct? Yes.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
So that seems like an objective truth.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
So I thought that was a pretty darn good argument. I didn't have a response to it. So I'd love to know.
Teresa Morris:
Yeah.
Will Wright:
I'm not a philosopher. I'm not an ethicist. So...
Teresa Morris:
Yeah,
Will Wright:
what do you say?
Teresa Morris:
I think that we use the term objective truth way too freely. And I think that there are objective truths and personal preferences being true in the moment isn't an objective truth. We can say right now it is objectively true. that you like your pizza however you like it. But that's not an objective truth because objective truth is unchanging. So
Will Wright:
Hmm.
Teresa Morris:
something that is in this moment objectively true isn't an objective truth because that could change. Whereas objective truths are unchanging. So I think we
Will Wright:
I love that.
Teresa Morris:
Use that term way too freely. And I think that if we just say, we're going to reserve the term objective truth for things that are unchanging, it actually frees us to then distinguish between things that are. subjective and they can be subjectively true and something can be true and not be an objective truth. So I think that the difference between, so I think that's important. And then the difference between subjective versus relative. Subjective just means it pertains to the subject. So things that pertain to the subject can change, right? My preferences can change. But that's different than saying something is relative. Something is relative just means like It's just relative to the person and there's nothing objective that will ever be responded to. So it's just what's true for you and that's different than what's true for me or what you think is good is fine. You know, what makes you happy or what you think is beautiful or whatever is totally different. It's relative. We don't need to agree. There's no common ground. When we're talking about subjective, I really think that when we speak about the subject, it's a really sacred thing. And this is the philosophy of personalists, the philosophy of JP2. which is that the subject matters, and the subject really matters to God, that it's not just, I'm just an iteration of a human, and I just am
Will Wright:
Hmm.
Teresa Morris:
an iteration of flesh and blood, and I'm just equally loved and here I am existing, it's that God uniquely loves each of us as subjects. And Augustine actually, I think in some ways, is the first personalist in this sense because he talks about the subjective nature of the mind. that when we recognize in ourselves a desire to know other things, it leads us towards something objective, right? That I crave beauty or I crave truth, and that leads me to something objective. I go towards something else. But when the mind begins to think of itself, it's already arrived at the answer. So there's something subjective there. Nothing else can touch my mind. It's my own. And so the subject just refers to the person, the subject. and the subject can encounter something objective. The subject could choose to be relative, but those two things are totally distinct. That relative is more a concept, if you would think of like relative in relation to other people, that
Will Wright:
Hmm.
Teresa Morris:
it's just something I think about in terms of society. Things are relative, we can't agree on anything, and there's no common ground, there's no foundation, where a subject is personal. It's what is my experience. of being oriented towards objective truths.
Will Wright:
I think a lot of the times we use the term relative in directly when we're talking about morality, that it's moral relativism. So one of the things that you mentioned was that objective truth doesn't change ever. I love that, it's very helpful. So how does that square up? And again, maybe this is tangential to our virtue conversation, but I think, I like it, we're gonna keep going. So how does that square up with like scientific truths? things that are observable in nature. For example, the acceleration due to gravity is such here on earth because of the mass of the earth and yada, right?
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
If we go to a different planet, gravity is gonna be a little different.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
But those are still scientifically observable things if the mass, and really what we're saying is that the force exerted because of mass and the electromagnetic. field and all the other things that go into the, I am not a scientist, so I'm way out of my depth here, but my understanding is that the coefficients related to physics exist in such a way as to hold all things together here, but that in some far-flung part of the universe, those coefficients might be totally different, and they might even change. So it seems like a lot of the things that we observe in nature are subject to change. And of course they are because of like entropy and matter being created, not created, it's neither created nor destroyed, but it's changed. So with all of that change, of course there's gonna be a change in composition and like eventually everything's gonna, I guess explode, I don't know, or just drift further apart and go and be frozen. There's all kinds of different theories, but how do we square objective truth when we're not talking about morality with something like a scientific fact because it seems like a lot of people today being scientific See, you know all these things that we learn by science that's truth that's fact But it based on what you said about objective reality not changing that seems to not mesh up at all if that makes sense
Teresa Morris:
Hmm. I guess I just would not, maybe this is too simple or reductionistic of an answer, but I just don't have a problem in saying that scientific facts don't need to be categorized as objective truths. And I think it goes back to, I really tend to lean towards saying something is objectively true versus an objective truth. And I just think that perhaps they're just far fewer objective truths than maybe we think that there are. And perhaps all of those things just are things that are true in relation to God, right? That like who he is and who we are in front of him. I am a created being. That's an objective truth. That's never going to change. I am loved by my creator. That's an objective truth. That's never going to change. My creator is love itself. That's never going to change. So I think that objective truths have to do more with the nature of God and who we are in relation to him, whereas scientific facts, we can say, are facts that are currently objectively true. And that leaves room for those things to change. And I think that the tendency to identify those as objective truths is a product of the enlightenment, that the enlightenment really pushes us to only trust things that are proven and to say that something that is proven is an objective truth. And I think you can say, yeah, I can prove that this is objectively true, but that might not be true in 200 years, or it might not be true on Mars. And we can alter those things, right? What has been considered true in science 500 years ago, we're like, oh, shoot, that's not actually true. Or it's true in one circumstance and not in another. Or even just saying, you know, 50 years ago, humans can't survive on Mars. That was an objective truth. And that is going to change where it will be true to say that humans can survive on Mars. And so there's that area of scientific fact. I just don't think that we need to say that those are objective truths. I think we can say some things are objectively true and that leaves room for that to change, but we don't need to make them harden fast eternal truths.
Will Wright:
No, absolutely. And the reason I brought it up is because I have met so many people who are so entrenched in scientific thought, that they think there really is no other source of truth,
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
which is perhaps a product of the Enlightenment. I think it's even further back than that. But it seems like there's this deep sort of abiding sense that philosophy doesn't matter. And especially metaphysics. I mean, I've spoken to people who I went to college with, for example, who call themselves moral relativists, accept that label. One has a PhD in public health, which I think, you know, like, it would be really important for you to understand philosophy or metaphysics, but he rejects metaphysics. Like he said that in a conversation one day, he said, I don't believe that metaphysics exists.
Teresa Morris:
Hmm
Will Wright:
I said, well, I don't believe that you exist. Conversation over. No, just kidding. No,
Teresa Morris:
This is all fake
Will Wright:
it was just really hard to wrap my head around that because if we don't have good first principles, if we don't have good philosophical groundings, then there's gonna be things that we see in science where science just becomes completely relative. And I will use that
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
word relative because it says, well, this is what I think. And so I'm just sort of gonna manifest the simulation of that. It's
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
like looking at the wall of the cave and saying there's the reality and the shadows. So these things, like you said, that were created beings that were loved by our creator, those are unchanging
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
objective facts. The fact that I'm a man and you're a woman, for example, never going to change. We can try to change it. We can scientifically make all these things. This is why I think that the transgender ideology is so insidious. Is not because. of individual people sort of trying to hoodwink someone. I don't think that's the case at all. I think that they've lost the mooring of philosophy so long ago, I guess not that long ago, 10 years maybe, five, 10 years. But without that philosophical foundation, what's to stop somebody from saying, well, I feel like this, so I'm going to be it. And so I have a lot of compassion for that. I don't have a lot of compassion when it comes to some of the practical concerns that come from, especially related to children, but also adults when it comes to cross-sex hormones and genital mutilation and all these other horrible things that are happening, I think that's inexcusable. But I wonder, because I think this all pertains when we talk about virtue is, how do we approach something like that and push back in a way that's not horribly rude. We don't want to be rude, right? But we also can't back down from something that's important because I've heard a lot of people put it this way. I've heard a lot of people say, well, why do you care so much? You know, it's not it's not you. So what does it matter? And then the other person generally will respond in some iteration of, well, because I care about truth. I just feel like there's something seriously missing from that conversation. There's a huge disconnect between the two.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
So anyway, we're probably gonna get this video pulled off of YouTube, but continue.
Teresa Morris:
Yeah, well I think that the one of the big pieces that's missing from all of these conversations, whether it's a conversation about morality or scientific advancement or any type of medical intervention or whatever, or just the lack of virtue in general in society, is that we've lost a sense of looking to the telos of a thing. So we have removed this teleological view of the world, which is this question of what is something made for? What is it oriented towards? And when we take that away, then really you do provide this permission to do whatever you want, because you're not oriented towards anything, and you don't know what you're made for. So if we are able to return to this teleological vision of humanity, where we recognize where we are. So even just saying, you know, here we are in 2023, what has worked for morality in the past isn't going to necessarily work today. Like it is okay to say we do need a new vision for how to integrate these objective truths. But the truth of what it means to be human has not changed and what human beings are oriented towards has not changed. But I think we've really lost that. And I think
Will Wright:
Hmm.
Teresa Morris:
I think that was something that the Enlightenment really just rejected was this sense of teleology and you know we're not really oriented towards anything so as long as I can prove that it exists in this moment then that's all that really matters. So this question of what is the goal and what is the purpose of every human being that exists and even to go further and to say that there is a goal and a purpose of every person because some people don't even believe that. And so asking that question first and foremost. And then when it comes to these questions of, you know, medical interventions and transitioning and whatnot, I think it's, you know, some people really are, they really care about truth and the integration of truth in society and the capacity for society to take truth seriously, even just to, you know, be able to put something in front of another person and trust that they're gonna acknowledge that that's there, right, that we've kind of lost this sense of, are we even looking at the same thing? It
Will Wright:
Yeah.
Teresa Morris:
seems like we're not even able to acknowledge that. And that's an important, that's really important to return to a society that can acknowledge that truth exists and that we can agree on it. But also I think perhaps the part that's missing that I think this concept of virtue gives is this sense of, yeah, I care about truth, but I care about my fellow man because we belong to one another. That I'm not an isolated person, I'm made for community, I'm made for relationship. So what is causing an ache in another person, this question of, you know, Who am I? Right? Which is this
Will Wright:
Hmm. Fundamental.
Teresa Morris:
any struggle, right? Yeah, that all of us have this question of gosh, who am I? Am I made for something? What am I made for? I want to know it. And there are all these horrible answers that society gives of, oh, well, maybe if you change this, you'll have this answer and you'll know who you are then. And so I, yes, I care about truth, but I think the deeper response is I really care about the integration of truth in the hearts of my fellow man.
Will Wright:
Hmm.
Teresa Morris:
And I want them to have an answer to this question of who am I and an answer to these struggles. And there is an answer, but what's being proposed to them is so flawed. And if we're able to say, actually this answer is present in your being, that
Will Wright:
Hmm.
Teresa Morris:
it's ingrained in your being, you don't need to alter who you are to find this answer that it's already ingrained in your existence. which is a return to metaphysics, I think we would maybe get farther in society because just saying we care about truth, that's good, but it doesn't then look to, okay, but there's still all these people struggling to integrate it. So I think that when we really care about truth, we're also caring about the people who are hearing the truth and able to integrate it into their lives.
Will Wright:
Well, in a postmodern world where words only have meaning in relation to the words around them, to say, well, I care about what's true, you can have so many providers, whether it's through cowardice or through actually believing this stuff, to say, well, when I have a patient come to me who says that they are actually in point of fact, a man, even though they are biologically a woman, I have to affirm that that's truth. That's their truth. That's what they believe. And so I take them at their word. Now, nowhere in medicine or psychology since its inception have we ever accepted only what the patient says as the criteria for diagnosis, but leaving that aside, and that's a huge problem, but leaving that aside, it's so easy to sort of play this word game. So I think everything you say, I'd absolutely... excuse the pun, I would affirm that. But how do we reintroduce metaphysics into the conversation? Cause I think that's the crux of what you're saying. And I agree. That's what's missing is how do we help people see that there is an objective reality and that things do have an ontological basis in the world. I guess I should, okay, what's ontology? Let's start there. What
Teresa Morris:
Yeah.
Will Wright:
is an ontological reality? Ontology is one of my favorite words and it's like a will write drinking game with my friends.
Teresa Morris:
How many? Take a shot every time. Yeah, ontology refers to being. So an ontological view of the world is referring to the being of things. And so the fact that humans are a different type of being than God is, I have a different ontology.
Will Wright:
and fun words like quiddity.
Teresa Morris:
so, look at you.
Will Wright:
I love, I love, I love scholastic terminology. It's fun. Just means..
Teresa Morris:
It is fun.
Will Wright:
.. whatness, right? Like what is it? Anyway.
Teresa Morris:
Yep.
Will Wright:
Yeah. Super important though. It's cause if we don't know what a thing is, how can we even talk about it? So in a world where the majority, not even the majority, I won't make that claim where a lot of people are rejecting philosophical principles and metaphysics. How can we talk about anything in an intelligent way? So anyway, sorry for that digression, so going back to that first question I asked, how do we reinsert metaphysics back into the conversation in an intelligible way?
Teresa Morris:
Yeah. Well, what's interesting is like I kind of think metaphysics is sneaking into Social consciousness a little bit if you look at this movement of spirituality You know even just like new age things people are recognizing that there's something beyond the physical going on Even though their answer to that, you know, like astrology or whatever is incorrect There is this desire that people are recognizing in themselves that they're more than just the physical world and that there's something to being human beyond just my physical reality. And I think that's a really beautiful and a really hopeful thing that people are kind of getting into these, really spiritual views of the world. Even if you just look at psychology, psychology is so big right now on how the body retains memories of our experiences. There's something metaphysical to that. where there's something beyond what I'm currently experiencing that my body might be remembering and physically encountering that isn't actually happening to me right now. That's a crazy proposal, but that's in a lot of modern psychology, which just brings us back to this idea that there's something beyond myself. There's something beyond just the fact that I have a body. So I think that... that desire to understand the world in a metaphysical sense, that desire to know that there's something beyond just this is already really present in social consciousness. And I think that's very hopeful. So I think taking that desire, helping people name what that is, right? It's not just like, oh, I want to be able to predict my life three months from now, or I think it's fun to ask people what sign you are. but that there's actually a true desire where that's coming from and saying, name that desire. What is it? What are you really seeking? And once people can name it, then we can kind of start proposing a true response to it. But I think that metaphysics, that view of reality is already sneaking back in. I think you can only stay stuck in a purely materialistic viewpoint for so long before the human... gets tired of it and says, I know there's something more. And so that knowledge and that seeking is already present. And I think that we can just say, okay, yeah, cool. That's great. You're there. You're recognizing this desire. Let's name that and let's orient ourselves to perhaps a more fulfilling answer.
Will Wright:
Well, even the new atheists who were so popular in the late 90s, early 2000s, like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, have gone completely relativistic at this point. I mean, Richard Dawkins being a quite adept biologist, a horrible philosopher. I mean, the God delusion is full of ridiculous things.
Teresa Morris:
Oh yeah, it's so bad.
Will Wright:
My favorite one in that is when he says that, I mean, because I mentioned divine simplicity earlier. He gets God completely wrong because he says, look at all the biodiversity. So God must be the most complex being there is. And it's like, no, you're going the wrong way, homie. You go the other direction. He's the most simple being. And that's just basic metaphysics, but he can't wrap his head around it. But now a lot of the things he's putting out there are just completely relativistic. And so I think you're dead right on that. Like you can't live in that materialist naturalist view without doing severe harm to your mind. And I mean that in a very real sense, I mean that literally. Because if we look, like you were saying with the psychological research recently, there's been a lot of work in neuroscience towards what is consciousness.
Teresa Morris:
Right?
Will Wright:
And they've made little to no headway over decades because they never will, because the mind is bigger than the brain, come to find out. So it's fascinating that from a scientific standpoint, it's sort of affirming what we've always held. Like for example, the hylomorphic reality of body and soul, that we are more than just our bodies and that our mind is more than just our brains. It's more than just chemicals firing. Cause with the new age things, I have some students who would wear crystals and things like this. And I had a conversation with one girl one day, If you're listening to this, you know who you are and you know, I love you She was like, well, you know, they give off energy.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
And the girl next to her goes, that's bullshit. You know what she said? Anyway, she was like, that's ridiculous. No way. Come on, the rocks. And I'm like, Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. And she was like, well, I feel different when I'm, I feel like there's forces around me that are working on me and doing different things in my life. I'm like, yeah, those might be demons. So can you be careful?
Teresa Morris:
Yeah, be careful.
Will Wright:
It's not always demons, but there are supernatural forces at work. Angels and demons do exist.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
Um, you know, God is real and actually trying to reach her heart. Um, so I told her, I said to her that night, uh, I said that night, I want you to go home and I want you to take off the crystals and just ask God to be present to you in a way that you'll understand that's it. And then just, just maybe lie in bed and just be ready to, to listen. And, uh, she came back a couple of days later and, um, We're back in class in his guitar class, so we weren't doing much of anything. And whatever. Anyway, we were
Teresa Morris:
Shout out to Guitar Class.
Will Wright:
it's a great class. They learned so many things about guitar, but it afforded us time to talk. Anyway, so she didn't have all of her crystal stuff on, and
Teresa Morris:
Hmm.
Will Wright:
I was like, what? What's going on with that? And she said, well, God talked to me, so I... I think I shouldn't wear these crystal things anymore because they're
Teresa Morris:
I guess.
Will Wright:
probably not good for me and they're probably just rocks. And I said, that's
Teresa Morris:
Aw.
Will Wright:
awesome. But then that led to another conversation about, you know, the Catholic church teaches what is true. And then the girl who was saying that it's ridiculous that rocks have energy was saying, well, I'm only really Catholic because my parents are Catholic. And how do I know that any of this is true? Everybody else has different religious beliefs. But anyway, all of that to say.
Teresa Morris:
Good question.
Will Wright:
in these great conversations, what never came up was the idea that God did not exist. What never came up was the idea that the supernatural didn't exist. Well, that's huge. And so, just to affirm what you were saying, I'm seeing that as well, especially with the teens, is that the idea of atheism is just completely foreign to them. Now, whether that's a pseudo-like neo-paganism, or new age stuff, whatever. I find that very optimistic and heartening as well, because the Catholic Church is really good at evangelizing pagans.
Teresa Morris:
Yeah,
Will Wright:
It's kind of our thing, it's
Teresa Morris:
historically,
Will Wright:
what we do. So
Teresa Morris:
yeah.
Will Wright:
I think we need to step it up on that. And like you say,
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm.
Will Wright:
propose the truth, give words to what people are already experiencing. I love that approach. Because if we just keep fighting... I mean, basically we'd be fighting the culture war until we die.
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm. Right.
Will Wright:
Um, which I'm not sure what you think about this, but I, I find the culture war to be completely tedious.
Teresa Morris:
Yeah, and largely unaffected. Like
Will Wright:
Hmm.
Teresa Morris:
I think that we're not really making a ton of headway on it. And it's also, it can I think lead to a lot of naval gazing. We can talk about this at a different time, but I think it can become,
Will Wright:
No,
Teresa Morris:
we've become out own gods. I think, if we just are like, yeah, our mission in life is to engage in the culture war, it's like, well then that's about me and how I'm. I'm changing the culture and it's not about, am I actually trusting that Christ can transform someone's heart and actually propose Christ to them and not just constantly be battling sets of ideas and whatnot. But yeah, I think it's so true, I found this as well in teaching younger generations that it's so fascinating because I feel like when I was being taught in high school, there was this huge battle against atheistic ideas. And it's just, we don't really have that now. That there really is, they have this sense of there's something beyond themselves and they are very spiritual. And I think that that's, yeah, it's super hopeful. And even the idea that, you know, like she has these rocks, like she wants something. physical like Catholicism understands that too. That's why we have the Eucharist because Christ is like I get that you guys need physical things like you guys really thrive being able to touch something like you're embodied persons and you know God knows that and he doesn't discount that and how he encounters us so even that you know I think there's something sweet in you know people who want to you know be touching crystals and stuff that there's this sense of yeah I'm embodied and my connection to the divine is somehow through something physical too. And the Eucharist gives that response that, yeah, that's okay. That's actually a really beautiful desire and Christ meets that desire. Yeah,
Will Wright:
The Catholic, uh, thinker, Louis Bouyer, I paraphrasing him because I don't remember the exact quote, but he said that if the church is only invisible, then that's not the church. And I, I love that because it shows just how embodied Catholicism is, whether it's the Eucharist or whether it's sacramentals or beautiful churches, uh, or God awful modernist concrete buildings that still have the mass offered in them. Um, you know, that's showing that embodiment can go both ways, but it's, it's so utterly true that we are body and soul, uh, like Peter Kreeft says, we're in sold bodies or we're embodied souls. Either way you slice it. We have both. Right. Um, he also makes the interesting, uh, sort of a realization that if we are bodies without souls, then we're zombies. And if we're souls without bodies, then we're ghosts.
Teresa Morris:
It does, yeah.
Will Wright:
So, you know, I don't want to be a zombie or a ghost. I'd prefer to be a full real life human being.
Teresa Morris:
Person, yeah.
Will Wright:
So practically, tangibly living this out, just kind of returning to this idea of virtue as the mean between two extremes. Let's, because we're nearing around an hour. So let's end by walking through practically with a couple of examples, what this would look like. But before we do that, I just want to make one caveat on the theological virtues, because I think that's really, really important distinction for us and a lot of people don't understand this. The theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity are God's life dwelling within us. We receive them as an indwelling in baptism. Before baptism, they're working around us because God is wooing us to the sacraments. He's drawing us to himself, but we receive them in our soul. as an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in baptism and then amplified and elevated in confirmation But those gifts of faith to know the faith to know the things of God what is revealed hope to the sure and certain hope of heaven if we are Friends of God and doing what he says following his commandments as Jesus says and then charity Which is the only one that will remain in the end is the very love of God the glue that holds all things together the ground of being itself Faith, hope and charity are not something that you and I can grow in on our own. We cannot practice them like we do the rest of the virtues. They are a gift to be used or squandered. And the way that we increase in them is by asking for more of them. So if we use those gifts that we've been given of faith, hope and charity well, and we ask God for a greater share in His divine life, and we're living life for virtue, then He'll give us more faith, hope and charity. And this can keep going forever. And this is the growth in holiness. But the other virtues, the cardinal virtues so-called, because cardine means hinge in Latin, so all the other virtues hinge on temperance, justice, fortitude, and prudence. And those four cardinal virtues sort of are something that we can work on. We are able to intentionally enter into them daily, habitually, firmly. Disposing ourselves to the good and working on them and all of the moral virtues Sort of come underneath those. So like for example justice has a sub virtue, which is piety which has another sub virtue, which is patriotism or Love of father and mother so like the cardinal virtues are here and then all the moral virtues sort of branch off from those So I feel like that's super important to just at least mention is the theological virtues. We can't grow in them on our own We receive more of them, we ask for more of them. But when it comes to the cardinal virtues and the moral virtues, let's just walk through a couple of examples of those. So generosity, for example, what would the excess and deficiency of generosity be?
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so again, like generosity is this mean between two extremes. So it's like this middle ground. So the access of generosity would be, you know, giving way too much of your time, having no boundaries, giving, giving too much of your time or your belongings or whatever. And, and, and yeah, being overly giving the deficiency would be like scrupulosity, like you're not giving anything, you're being stingy. And so you want this middle ground of an adequate understanding of what you can give and giving adequately from that place. One thing I do want to mention, even as I'm talking about this, it's easy to talk about excess and deficiency by saying an excess is too much of something, a deficiency is not enough. But when we're looking at virtue as a mean between these extremes, the mean, it's the same concept as in math where it's an average of something. And if something's an average, you cannot max it out. So you can't actually have too much of an average. That doesn't make sense. So I'm using these terms of like, you're being too generous, you're not being generous enough. But if you're actually virtuous, it's not possible to be too virtuous because you're already in the realm of a mean. So it's actually not possible to be too generous or too courageous or too kind that if you actually are in a place where it's no longer generosity, it's not actually that it's too generous, it's something else entirely.
Will Wright:
Well, and that goes back to what you were saying about it being a subjective instantiation of virtue, right? That it's going to depend on the circumstances. So to give a little bit more flesh to the generosity thing, if I have $10 that I'm making on a given day and I owe $5 to pay my bills and house my family and I have to pay $2 for food, obviously this is like pre-Biden's America. Um, sorry, was that too political? Anyway. let's say inflation
Teresa Morris:
Timestamp.
Will Wright:
before terrible inflation anyway. So $5 for housing, $2 for food, and then I've got $3 leftover and say I give $2 of that to the church for tithing and $1 to feed a homeless person who I see on the way home. That would be well ordered because I'm paying my bills. I'm fulfilling my duties as afather and husband, right? Now, if I'm going home and I, take my $10 and I give all of it to that homeless person I encountered on the way home, that's not generosity. That's that'sfoolish. Thatwould be the deficient. That would be the excess, right? It's nolonger generosity, because I'm actually not fulfilling my duty to my family.
Teresa Morris:
Right.
Will Wright:
I'm not paying my bills, which are just I'm not feeding my family, which is my obligation. So I think that that's theright way to look at it is what you're saying is that That's no longer generosity. That's something else entirely.
Teresa Morris:
Right.
Will Wright:
That's extravagance in a sense.
Teresa Morris:
Yeah, which then goes back to this point about what type of person do I want to be? It's not just this set of rules of this is what I should do in these circumstances. It's who am I, right? So if someone is a father and a husband, there are certain duties that come with that. And so it's not just, you know, whereas if that was me, you know, if as a single person, I have more capacity to, you know, give to people in need because I don't have these corresponding duties to the type person that I'm currently called to be. So again, it is the subjective sense of things, but when you're subjectively living it, you have to look at who am I called to be in this moment or in this season of my life and what are the duties that come with that. I think another example that I love giving, which I think is kind of fun is, I think it's Aquinas talks about pleasantness being the virtue corresponding to like playing games. or sports, which I think could also be sportsman-like conduct is sort of the virtue. And so if you have too much of that, if you're in excess, that would be something like being a pushover. You're not actually competing and it's not really fun because you're just letting people walk all over you and you're not really being competitive, you're not trying. The deficiency of that would be something like unsportsman-like conduct or being a bully and your entire goal is just to dominate. and to win and you're not actually engaging in healthy competition. So that's a fun one too if you just think about playing a sport or being in competitions at work or whatever that's fun and you know when it's pleasant and you know when you're like I just don't want to be around this person. This has become something else entirely. We're not actually engaging as persons andit's no longer pleasant because people aren't being, aren't conducting themselves well. So that's also a fun one.
Will Wright:
Yeah, there's a lot of moral virtues. There's actually quite a few. So we can go through 18 of these and still not be done. So I think we've kind of hit the main points. But as a kind of final thought, I would just say, you know, because there's so many, we can't intentionally focus on all of them.So what's the best strategy to grow in virtue? Because it needs to be something that's intentional. We're striving for excellence. But we also don't want to go to the access of even that, right? Of wanting to grow in virtue. This idea of, I guess that would be fortitude, maybe even prudence, temperance. Really it's all of them, justice.
Teresa Morris:
Two million.
Will Wright:
I mean, all the cardinal virtues come into play in what I'm suggesting here. So what's a, what's a practical way that we can move forward in a life of virtue?
Teresa Morris:
Mm-hmm. One of the things I always talk to my students about when I'm first introducing this idea because it can it can seem either overwhelming or super exciting where you're like, oh my gosh Yeah, I really want to be a virtuous person and then it can become sort of a self-help thing where it's like I got to change my whole life and you know, I'm gonna be I'm gonna dominate I'm gonna be like the best virtuous person
Will Wright:
Be the best version of yourself... Sorry... Hate that phrase. Anyway, we're not talking about that right now. I feel like every conversation video I'm dunking on some famous Catholic person. I'm sorry, Matthew Kelly
Teresa Morris:
We love him, we love him. Thank you for all your free books. We really appreciate that as a church.
Will Wright:
Of course, they're not very good, but. Sorry, I don't like them. I think they're terrible. I think the first couple were great. Rediscovering Catholicism
Teresa Morris:
Oh man...
Will Wright:
has a lot of merit. The most recent ones were clearly not even written by him. He maybe edited them from like five different sources. I read them in like one sitting and just thought it was trash, which is probably uncharitable of me to say publicly. But you know what? We're about being authentic here on Good Distinctions.
Teresa Morris:
They might be for people in different places in their faith.
Will Wright:
Super helpful for some people. And you know what? God bless them.
Teresa Morris:
Yeah. We're happy about that. Yeah. You never know what's going to hit for someone, but, anyways, be the best version of yourself. Yeah. It can kind of become our own God instead of God being our God.
Will Wright:
I'm a jerk. Sorry, continue. Yes, that's my issue with it. It's very self-help-y, which there's nothing wrong with self-help. I mean, Jordan Peterson was talking about this on a podcast not long ago. He goes, well, what's wrong with, I'm not gonna do the impression because I'm terrible at it, but what's wrong with self-help? What's wrong with helping yourself? You can't do everything by yourself, but there's nothing wrong with a little bit of that. It's. Not. Nothing.
Teresa Morris:
Which is true. It's not nothing.
Will Wright:
That's my favorite Jordan Peterson-ism. Anyway, I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna stop cutting you off.
Teresa Morris:
Bring on the accents. This is good. So yeah, I mean, I think that the way that it's it doesn't just become yeah, this sense of I need to dominate myself and I just become this self-help obsessed person is by really said, I think this is where the examination of conscience can come in, where you're actually looking at where you are, like taking a true honest stock of where you're at in your life and what you're genuinely struggling with and picking one thing. And so for me, that always comes with like, what do I keep confessing that I just am like, this is just part of my confession and saying, Oh, I sometimes I forget I can actually eradicate that from my life and that comes both with the help of my own Cultivation of virtue the way that I choose to live my life saying I'm not gonna put myself in positions where This is gonna be a temptation and being intentional about that but also trusting that grace is efficacious and it is going to help and so The way is a Catholic. I think we have this You know kind of easier route to virtue because it's my own my own striving with grace right that grace is building on nature so i would say just yeah taking an honest stock of your life looking at you know if you go to confession what are you consistently confessing and what is bothering you the most about what you're consistently confessing what would you really if you could say i could just be done with this thing in my life that this could be gone what would you what's the one thing you would hope would be gone and working on that. And again, we learn virtue through imitation. So seeking people out, if you don't have people in your circle, right? Like you're in college or whatever, and you're just like, oh my gosh, I'm just surrounded by a bunch of other 19 year olds and they're also struggling with this. So like, what do I do? Be in contact with people, even if you're not physically around them who have that, or consume things that... are from people who cultivate this virtue. So, you know, watching YouTube, reading books, whatever, so that what is entering your being is at least coming from places that are cultivating this virtue that you're trying to cultivate within yourself. What would you say?
Will Wright:
And the examination of conscience is a great place to start because it lets God set the tone. It lets Him lead. Because if we try to see ourselves, we're never going to get it right. Not completely. We're actually really horrible at seeing ourselves. It's usually in retrospect and it's usually with the help of friends that we can see ourselves more clearly. But if we're seeking to use the gifts of the Holy Spirit to see as God sees, to really have the gift of wisdom to see the world as God sees it and the gift of understanding to understand how God sees us. If we use those gifts, combine it with everything you've said about virtue and growth, I think a daily examination of conscience is huge. It's a game changer for sure. And I would also recommend, I don't know what your thoughts are on this, but I try to go to confession at least once every two weeks. because that seems to be what the saints by and large did. And it seems like a really good practice. And frankly, I can't remember anything past two weeks. So it's practically good as well. And they say confession is good for the soul, yes. But the sacrament of penance especially is this channel of grace. It's this communion with the cross of Jesus Christ in a very real sense. where we can enter into the reality of the cross, give everything over to our crucified Lord and say, I'm broken, I can't do this on my own, but I trust that you can. So just to piggyback on what you said, not only should we work towards eradicating sin in our lives, especially mortal sins, but we should believe and trust that Jesus can do it. And I feel like that's so hard for people sometimes. I know it's been hard for me in my own life. It's like, man, I'm confessing the same sin every single time I go to confession. Well, yeah, that seems to be a pretty, after I've talked to more people, it's a pretty darn universal thing. So we generally fall into the same sins. That doesn't mean that we're beyond redemption. It doesn't mean that we're extra broken. But I also don't like it when people say, well, we're only human. It's like, no, shush. The most perfect human is Jesus and he didn't
Teresa Morris:
right.
Will Wright:
... sin at all and Mary didn't sin at all. So it's perfectly possible. So stop saying that. But, you know, our feelings are there, but if we trust that Jesus can free us, uh, and wants to, it's just a matter of when, and that's not up to us. So we move forward and we trust in him and we say, yes, Lord, I know that you will free me of this. I'm going to do my part. I'm going to cooperate with grace. I'm going to continue to grow in virtue as I am able with your grace, because as soon as we eradicate that one sin, another one will pop up until we die. And that's just the way it goes.
Teresa Morris:
It's a journey of being human. Yeah. I will also, I'll say two things just because confession came up, because I know confession can be something that's really terrifying for a lot of people. And it's helpful to remember that the church is really rooting for you, that confession can sometimes feel like this is just a place of judgment and you know I'm upset with myself, I'm beating myself up and then I feel like a priest is going to beat me up and really that it's a place where the church is rooting for you and rooting for your soul, rooting for your redemption and it's a place of hope and if you've had a bad experience in confession I'm so sorry but the grace of the sacrament remains no matter what and that It should not be a place where you're experiencing judgment. It should be a place of healing and hope. And that the church isn't just saying, we don't want you to be a bad person. The church is saying, I want you to be free. And so it's a place of freedom for you. The other point in that is that when you're looking at the things that you consistently struggle with, so your vices, the places that are hard, and that's gonna be different for everyone, the things that we consistently fall into. What is so hopeful and beautiful about that is that often the places that we struggle the most, the place of our vice is also the place where Christ can do the most work in our life. And it's the flip of that is gonna be the virtue sometimes that you will excel the most in. So for example, if someone really falls into gossip often, their virtue perhaps, like the virtue that they might really thrive in is speaking truth because there's something about their temperament that's oriented towards towards speaking and that vices don't just eradicate in our lives, but Christ transforms those places. Christ doesn't just knock things out. He actually like turns the place of death into something more beautiful. So these places where you're struggling can actually be the exact place that your virtue can come from. So there's something really hopeful.
Will Wright:
Amen. Well, that's good note to end on, because it's all about Jesus and it's all about what He can do in our lives.
Teresa Morris:
It is. He's great.
Will Wright:
So Teresa, it's been a great conversation on virtue. And for everyone listening, if you haven't yet subscribed to us on YouTube, please do so at Good Distinctions. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Instagram. We post reels and shorts occasionally. We plan on doing a few more things like Instagram live or perhaps a monthly zoom call more on that to come. So just to peak your interest and then leave you hanging. But we'll see more about that. To do that, please sign up with your email on Substack. You can do that by going to gooddistinctions.com. That's where we post absolutely everything. So if you don't wanna miss everything or anything rather, go to gooddistinctions.com and sign up for free. where there's also a paid subscription option. We're formulating kind of what you might get for that, but at the moment it's sort of just to support us and help us keep going. So gooddistinctions.com, please sign up there. You can also follow us on Instagram and YouTube.
Teresa Morris:
We appreciate it.
Will Wright:
Today we talked about virtue as being the mean between an excess and efficiency. We talked about some practical matters, how we can grow in virtue, and we took a lot of tangents along the way, which all led us back to the end and very St. John Paul the second fashion, I'd say, of kind of going all the way around something to get back to the heart
Teresa Morris:
Yeah.
Will Wright:
of it. So it's been a wonderful conversation. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you next week on Good Distinctions because good distinctions are
Teresa Morris:
The Spice of Life. We'll see you next time.
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